Why You Need Solution-Centric Sales with Janice B Gordon

Wesleyne Greer: 00:00:00

As a sales manager, you are judged by the

Wesleyne Greer: 00:00:03

performance of your team, and you're praised when they do

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well. But one thing that you've not been able to figure out is

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how to get everyone on your team consistently hitting quota every

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single month. On the Snack size sales podcast, we discuss the

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science of selling stem sales leadership in the science,

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technology, engineering and manufacturing fields is

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difficult. You will learn from sales managers just like you

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that will give you actionable insights and tips on how to

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develop as a leader and achieve your revenue targets every

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single month. So pop your headphones in and get ready to

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listen to my guests today. They will give you information and

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inspiration to ensure that you have actionable insights that

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you can put into place today. Hello, and welcome to the

Wesleyne Greer: 00:01:01

transform your sales podcast today. I am so so excited to be

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speaking with Janice B. Gordon. How are you, Janice?

Janice Gordon: 00:01:10

Oh, it's great to be here.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:01:11

Thank you so much. He is all the way in the

Wesleyne Greer: 00:01:14

UK, which is why I love this world where we can just both pop

Wesleyne Greer: 00:01:18

on here and have this great conversation

Janice Gordon: 00:01:20

certainly is really very convenient, isn't

Janice Gordon: 00:01:24

it? It is it is.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:01:26

So let me tell you a little bit about Janice

Wesleyne Greer: 00:01:27

Janice B. Gordon is the customer growth expert. She uses her 20

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plus years of business sales, customer experience and

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leadership to unleash hidden potential and accelerate revenue

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growth by investing in customer alignment and buyer engagement.

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She's the founder of scale your sales podcast and framework.

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She's listed as a top 50 global thought leader and influencer

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and customer experience. She's a consultant, international

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speaker, educator and facilitator and author of

Wesleyne Greer: 00:01:54

business evolution, creating growth in a rapidly changing

Wesleyne Greer: 00:01:58

world and co author appeals to deals how women are dominating

Wesleyne Greer: 00:02:01

in business to business sales. Wow. So 20 plus years, and you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:02:06

are the customer growth expert. So how did you get started? And

Wesleyne Greer: 00:02:10

how did you get to where you are today?

Janice Gordon: 00:02:12

I started selling when I was 15. I had designs

Janice Gordon: 00:02:16

that I made. And people would say, Oh, can you make me one.

Janice Gordon: 00:02:19

And that's how it all started. I never thought I would be in

Janice Gordon: 00:02:23

sales. But I always thought I'd be an entrepreneur in and in

Janice Gordon: 00:02:27

business. And that's the route that I took. And no one ever

Janice Gordon: 00:02:31

told me that actually, if you're in business, you're in sales in

Janice Gordon: 00:02:35

schools, it's never laid out that way really, and how

Janice Gordon: 00:02:39

important sales is to business that connection was never made.

Janice Gordon: 00:02:43

So I did my degree in fashion textiles and business and went

Janice Gordon: 00:02:48

down the business side of fashion and textile selling

Janice Gordon: 00:02:51

textile designs. And my father was in America. So I got on a

Janice Gordon: 00:02:55

plane, I took my samples over and I called people and sold a

Janice Gordon: 00:02:59

lot of the samples. I mean, it was a real asset having an

Janice Gordon: 00:03:02

English accent on the phone calling a design director. So I

Janice Gordon: 00:03:06

sold for many years, I set up a business after I finished my

Janice Gordon: 00:03:10

first degree and would go out to America selling to contract and

Janice Gordon: 00:03:14

fashion houses or contract furnishings that was and then

Janice Gordon: 00:03:18

linked up with an American company and sold their samples

Janice Gordon: 00:03:22

designs in England. So going to scientists and liberties and the

Janice Gordon: 00:03:27

like. And I remember sometimes I'd be on the phone to people

Janice Gordon: 00:03:30

selling the American samples in in the UK. And then when I

Janice Gordon: 00:03:34

turned up their face would drop because I wasn't expecting a

Janice Gordon: 00:03:37

black woman, but I capitalize on on that I did a lot of field

Janice Gordon: 00:03:41

sales. I then went to Botswana and worked out there for a

Janice Gordon: 00:03:45

number of years. When I returned, I started working in

Janice Gordon: 00:03:50

financial service sales. And it's actually only at that point

Janice Gordon: 00:03:53

that I got my sales training my formal sales training, and at

Janice Gordon: 00:03:59

that time, we could cold call in the UK so it'd be a Tuesday I'd

Janice Gordon: 00:04:03

have to be in by eight o'clock and it'd be stand up cold

Janice Gordon: 00:04:06

calling and Tuesday evening between seven and eight stand up

Janice Gordon: 00:04:09

cold calling I hate

Janice Gordon: 00:04:12

I really love the relationship building and I'm helping my

Janice Gordon: 00:04:17

clients and companies to achieve their goals. But the cold

Janice Gordon: 00:04:20

calling bit I really didn't like at all there was no relationship

Janice Gordon: 00:04:25

and it was just seems so kind of forced really. So then I did my

Janice Gordon: 00:04:31

MBA Cranfield MBA, and I did that because I was still

Janice Gordon: 00:04:34

interested in business and it was great experience and I was

Janice Gordon: 00:04:37

running my own own company and growing it and meeting wonderful

Janice Gordon: 00:04:41

people. But I felt that I wanted more than that. And the MBA was

Janice Gordon: 00:04:46

to enable me to kind of bridge back across to entrepreneurship,

Janice Gordon: 00:04:50

bigger business. So I did my Cranfield MBA, and that was one

Janice Gordon: 00:04:55

of those experiences I had an assistants that were sitting in

Janice Gordon: 00:04:59

my desk in the The Office and I didn't tell the company that

Janice Gordon: 00:05:02

sells company I was doing an MBA because I knew that my

Janice Gordon: 00:05:05

commission, you know, if you've, you're in sales at that time,

Janice Gordon: 00:05:08

you don't tell them you're leaving, because then it's

Janice Gordon: 00:05:11

really difficult to get your last paycheck. So I did the, and

Janice Gordon: 00:05:15

though they think you're not serious about what you're doing,

Janice Gordon: 00:05:18

even if it's your own business, you're actually sitting in a

Janice Gordon: 00:05:20

serviced office knew you buy in some of their services,

Janice Gordon: 00:05:25

compliance, and so forth. So I left the sales industry

Janice Gordon: 00:05:29

financial services on the slide, really to make sure I got my

Janice Gordon: 00:05:33

last pay slip. And I moved into operations management with the

Janice Gordon: 00:05:37

help of my MBA. And that was a fantastic experience, because I

Janice Gordon: 00:05:42

learned a lot more about health and safety and recruiting people

Janice Gordon: 00:05:47

and training them up. And I worked my way out of a job.

Janice Gordon: 00:05:50

Because I'm very much a start. I like to create systems. That's

Janice Gordon: 00:05:55

what I loved about business, creating systems making sure

Janice Gordon: 00:05:59

that they work and sales process is another business system. But

Janice Gordon: 00:06:03

now it's very much more of an ecosystem, which I don't mind

Janice Gordon: 00:06:07

talking about. So that's how my kind of early started in sales.

Janice Gordon: 00:06:12

Thereafter, I work for a customer experience consultancy.

Janice Gordon: 00:06:15

And that changed my view of what sales is about previously, it

Janice Gordon: 00:06:19

was about pushing we're salespeople, we have all the

Janice Gordon: 00:06:22

information, we're pushing it on our customers, we're ringing

Janice Gordon: 00:06:25

them up, we're telling them what they should do, the industry has

Janice Gordon: 00:06:28

changed now where it's pulling, customers make all of the

Janice Gordon: 00:06:30

decisions, buyers have all of the information, and they're the

Janice Gordon: 00:06:34

ones doing the selecting. And so the experience has changed that

Janice Gordon: 00:06:38

you need to provide. So customer experience really taught me that

Janice Gordon: 00:06:42

customers are your best creators and innovators as buyers, they

Janice Gordon: 00:06:46

know what they want and what they're looking for. They have

Janice Gordon: 00:06:49

all of the cards. And so I started to change the way that I

Janice Gordon: 00:06:53

sold. And it became very much more consultative, but also very

Janice Gordon: 00:06:56

much about the experience, because I've learned all of this

Janice Gordon: 00:07:00

great information about how important experiences and that's

Janice Gordon: 00:07:04

very much true today, there are stats to say that experience

Janice Gordon: 00:07:08

Trumps price and product features and benefits now, and

Janice Gordon: 00:07:12

people are willing to pay more for great experiences, what if

Janice Gordon: 00:07:16

they're willing to pay more, and it trumps all those other

Janice Gordon: 00:07:19

traditional things, and it's something we need to be paying

Janice Gordon: 00:07:21

attention to. And that's what I do in scale your sales, it's all

Janice Gordon: 00:07:27

about reimagining the revenue growth through customer

Janice Gordon: 00:07:30

experience and sales, the sales will happen if you have the

Janice Gordon: 00:07:34

right product for the right customer and you create the

Janice Gordon: 00:07:37

right experience.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:07:38

Wow. So you have such a diverse background,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:07:43

because you actually started your career as an independent

Wesleyne Greer: 00:07:48

salesperson, whereas so many people typically they start for

Wesleyne Greer: 00:07:51

companies and like yeah, I don't like it. And then you went back

Wesleyne Greer: 00:07:54

and worked for a company and got those solid sales skills and you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:07:58

realize the things that you really enjoyed and the things

Wesleyne Greer: 00:08:00

that you didn't enjoy. So what were some of the lessons that

Wesleyne Greer: 00:08:03

you still use and implement today that you learned way back

Wesleyne Greer: 00:08:08

when when you first started out in sales,

Janice Gordon: 00:08:10

what I loved about sales with relationships,

Janice Gordon: 00:08:13

I love talking, and I have very good listening skills. So that's

Janice Gordon: 00:08:17

what I absolutely adored about my job. And when in compliance,

Janice Gordon: 00:08:22

they tried to change that. So they you know, you would have a

Janice Gordon: 00:08:26

recommendation letter go to compliance and you'll come back,

Janice Gordon: 00:08:29

you'd be 10 times before it got passed through compliance. By

Janice Gordon: 00:08:32

the end, you got this recommendation letter that had

Janice Gordon: 00:08:34

nothing to do with the customer you're selling it to, because

Janice Gordon: 00:08:37

they were thinking about protecting the company. And if

Janice Gordon: 00:08:40

you're in that kind of environment, if that's the

Janice Gordon: 00:08:42

primary thing that they're looking for, we don't want any

Janice Gordon: 00:08:45

come back. So that means you have no faith in what you're

Janice Gordon: 00:08:47

doing. And you're forcing all these people that do have faith

Janice Gordon: 00:08:50

that because they have the relationship with a customer,

Janice Gordon: 00:08:53

you're forcing them down the line. That's why I decided to

Janice Gordon: 00:08:55

come out of financial services sales, it didn't feel good, it

Janice Gordon: 00:08:59

didn't feel right. It wasn't about the relationship and doing

Janice Gordon: 00:09:02

good for the customer. When I went into customer experience, I

Janice Gordon: 00:09:06

thought oh my gosh, I found home it's all about the customer.

Janice Gordon: 00:09:10

This is what didn't seem right to me in sales. And absolutely,

Janice Gordon: 00:09:14

when I've got it in customer experience, I thought I'm still

Janice Gordon: 00:09:17

an entrepreneur, I know that sales is the core to all

Janice Gordon: 00:09:20

business and business growth. I have all my MBA experience. I

Janice Gordon: 00:09:25

know this is right, and it was just that little birth kind of

Janice Gordon: 00:09:28

third leg of the stool that I needed to put it all together to

Janice Gordon: 00:09:32

fall in love again with sales.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:09:35

So really not saying add this, I don't like

Wesleyne Greer: 00:09:39

this company. I don't like this industry. I'm gonna try

Wesleyne Greer: 00:09:41

something different. You really were able to tap into your

Wesleyne Greer: 00:09:45

passion and understand that customer experience is the way

Wesleyne Greer: 00:09:48

to go. And you mentioned you know, hey, you're having to send

Wesleyne Greer: 00:09:52

this to compliance and then it goes to a customer and it's so

Wesleyne Greer: 00:09:55

product centric. So what are some of the challenges that you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:09:58

see today with come buddies that are so focused on being product

Wesleyne Greer: 00:10:02

centric.

Janice Gordon: 00:10:02

Well, and they wonder why they're not selling?

Janice Gordon: 00:10:05

You know, I do you have a we, you know, in the kind of tech

Janice Gordon: 00:10:09

environment, you have these great, really sharp tech people,

Janice Gordon: 00:10:13

but they don't have the language of the customer, which is the

Janice Gordon: 00:10:16

first thing that I can't talk to them about interviewing your

Janice Gordon: 00:10:20

customers recording their language, what is the way they

Janice Gordon: 00:10:24

describe their pains, their problems? What is the way they

Janice Gordon: 00:10:28

describe what their ideal solution, this is the language

Janice Gordon: 00:10:32

you need to be using? Not the tech language, not the language

Janice Gordon: 00:10:37

you created this great service or product with because no one

Janice Gordon: 00:10:40

gets that absolutely not your customer. So that's the first

Janice Gordon: 00:10:44

thing that's changed. But also the you know, we've been through

Janice Gordon: 00:10:47

a pandemic, we've all working virtually now and starting to go

Janice Gordon: 00:10:51

back to face to face. And it's really understanding that our

Janice Gordon: 00:10:56

buyers and our customers have always been in the VA. Well, you

Janice Gordon: 00:10:58

know, they've been ahead of us in the virtual world in the way

Janice Gordon: 00:11:01

that they're using their tools and their apps. And its sales.

Janice Gordon: 00:11:05

It's catching up to that. And I think one thing that's happening

Janice Gordon: 00:11:08

in sales is we're going down the techie route, going down the

Janice Gordon: 00:11:12

data, and we're forgetting about sales is still about humans,

Janice Gordon: 00:11:15

even if you're b2b. It's still about humans making the decision

Janice Gordon: 00:11:20

until the robots are making decisions. So don't throw out

Janice Gordon: 00:11:24

what we know about what's all great about our human nature and

Janice Gordon: 00:11:28

human human behaviors. Don't throw that out. Yes, we need to

Janice Gordon: 00:11:34

sharpen our saw. And yes, data is absolutely important to help

Janice Gordon: 00:11:39

with our decision making. But at the end of the day, people are

Janice Gordon: 00:11:42

the ones that are still making those decisions.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:11:45

That's so good. Early in my career when I was

Wesleyne Greer: 00:11:49

still a salesperson, I'm a recovering chemist, I like to

Wesleyne Greer: 00:11:52

tell people that but I always sold to engineers. And what I

Wesleyne Greer: 00:11:55

learned is I couldn't use language that chemists

Wesleyne Greer: 00:11:58

understood, I can start talking about equations and this and

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:01

this and that I need to speak engineer. And so a lot of times

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:04

I will tell people, I speak engineer, because that's what my

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:06

clients be. And if you're selling to doctors, or lawyers,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:10

or CEOs, or maybe you're selling to customer service people, you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:13

have to really understand the words they use, right? When you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:17

can use their actual words, their phrases, they're like,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:21

this person gets me, right.

Janice Gordon: 00:12:23

Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. That's the

Janice Gordon: 00:12:26

starting point. That is the bare minimum.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:28

And so when you say okay, first, we need to

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:32

literally record our customer conversations, ask them these

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:36

difficult questions, understand, like, why do you buy from me why

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:40

you buy from my competitor? Then once you have all of that

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:43

information? How do you translate that and help people

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:46

become more problem centric, more buyer centric, and less

Wesleyne Greer: 00:12:49

product centric,

Janice Gordon: 00:12:50

people are solution centric, they're always

Janice Gordon: 00:12:53

about what's in it. For me, they're never about product

Janice Gordon: 00:12:57

centric, ever, ever, ever about product centric, because they

Janice Gordon: 00:13:02

don't really care if it's a drill, they want the hole, they

Janice Gordon: 00:13:05

want the solution. So that's their key focus. So using their

Janice Gordon: 00:13:09

language and using how they describe the solution. They

Janice Gordon: 00:13:12

never describe the product. They describe how the problem will

Janice Gordon: 00:13:16

help them, they use emotional words, and they describe the

Janice Gordon: 00:13:20

exacting solution that they want. Customers are very good at

Janice Gordon: 00:13:23

that. The problem is that in the sales industry, we've been so

Janice Gordon: 00:13:27

arrogant to think that what we've got is the best, and

Janice Gordon: 00:13:30

everyone's going to need it. And that's not the case. So once you

Janice Gordon: 00:13:34

have the language of the customer, you have to go in and

Janice Gordon: 00:13:37

interpret what do what I have in terms of products or service.

Janice Gordon: 00:13:41

How is that going to help the customer to move forward not

Janice Gordon: 00:13:44

necessarily to get a sale at the end of the day, it's moving step

Janice Gordon: 00:13:48

by step, what information do they need right now to move them

Janice Gordon: 00:13:51

on to the next step, what we tend to do so we give them the

Janice Gordon: 00:13:55

whole pie. And it's just information overload because we

Janice Gordon: 00:13:59

think we're starting to have a conversation with a seller

Janice Gordon: 00:14:02

they've given us some of the information of what they're

Janice Gordon: 00:14:04

looking for. I need to close that sale. Close it down right

Janice Gordon: 00:14:09

now. Because we've shown some interest, right I'm so now we're

Janice Gordon: 00:14:14

going full steam ahead. We tell our managers that this is a done

Janice Gordon: 00:14:18

deal. We're committed ourselves and now the pressure is on. And

Janice Gordon: 00:14:21

again, we're thinking about ourselves, we've completely come

Janice Gordon: 00:14:24

out and we've got this great language that the customer has

Janice Gordon: 00:14:27

given us and great value proposition, key words and

Janice Gordon: 00:14:31

things that's interested them. And as soon as they give us a

Janice Gordon: 00:14:34

little bit of information, then we go back into ourselves again,

Janice Gordon: 00:14:38

and we're thinking about it from our point of view and we've lost

Janice Gordon: 00:14:41

the sale. So always, always have the customer with a seat at the

Janice Gordon: 00:14:45

table always have their information, their language at

Janice Gordon: 00:14:49

the forefront, not only of your mind if you have to put it on

Janice Gordon: 00:14:52

your walls when you're working on a customer deal, then that's

Janice Gordon: 00:14:57

the only thing that you should be looking at Put yourself in

Janice Gordon: 00:15:01

their shoes, whatever tools, you need to do that visualization,

Janice Gordon: 00:15:07

have your screens as if you're in their space in their factory,

Janice Gordon: 00:15:11

you've got to completely absorb yourself with their world. And

Janice Gordon: 00:15:15

you have to keep using that going back and referencing that

Janice Gordon: 00:15:19

not only the when you start pitching and talking to them and

Janice Gordon: 00:15:22

moving them along their journey, but whenever you're creating

Janice Gordon: 00:15:26

anything for them, don't put it in a bottom drawer, it always

Janice Gordon: 00:15:29

has to be at the forefront. And even six months later, this

Janice Gordon: 00:15:32

summer is something that I teach salespeople, my clients that I

Janice Gordon: 00:15:36

work with, if six months later, you're able to reference the

Janice Gordon: 00:15:40

conversation that that buyer, that customer said to you using

Janice Gordon: 00:15:45

their language, they always recognize it. They always,

Janice Gordon: 00:15:49

always recognize it. And what does that say to them, this

Janice Gordon: 00:15:52

person's on my side, this person listens to me, this person

Janice Gordon: 00:15:56

values what we value. And that helps you to go forward.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:01

Wow, that's so powerful. It's you said it's not

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:04

product focus, it's more that they're their solution focus.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:07

It's like they hear they're like, Okay, I get that I can't

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:10

talk about myself, I need to be focused on them. As soon as you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:12

hear one little thing, you jump, and you're ready to close,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:15

right? But you're not following at the speed of the buyer,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:19

right. And so a lot of times, we're ready to close, we're

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:22

ready to move, but the buyer is like, I'm still in my evaluation

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:25

phase. So how do we bridge the gap between what the salesperson

Wesleyne Greer: 00:16:30

wants to do and what that actual buyer wants to do?

Janice Gordon: 00:16:32

But well, it doesn't really matter what the

Janice Gordon: 00:16:34

salesperson wants to do. That's irrelevant. That's the point.

Janice Gordon: 00:16:37

You know, it is the buyers, well, the buyers are the ones

Janice Gordon: 00:16:41

that are making the decisions, they're dictating the pace. And

Janice Gordon: 00:16:44

so it's really difficult for salespeople to grasp that

Janice Gordon: 00:16:47

concept. And until they do, they'll always be on the

Janice Gordon: 00:16:51

backfoot. So we need to just relinquish our control over the

Janice Gordon: 00:16:55

situation, we don't have any control, we're always going to

Janice Gordon: 00:16:58

be followers. And that's the way of the world now. But the better

Janice Gordon: 00:17:01

you are able to follow really closely, eventually, you'll be

Janice Gordon: 00:17:06

anticipating. And Steve Jobs said this years and years ago

Janice Gordon: 00:17:10

about this is the goal of Apple to anticipate needs. And the way

Janice Gordon: 00:17:15

that that happens is that you relinquish control first

Janice Gordon: 00:17:19

understand the world we're in right now. And this is it.

Janice Gordon: 00:17:23

You're never going to have the world you had in the 1990s and

Janice Gordon: 00:17:26

the naughties that has gone, the internet, we've already sold on

Janice Gordon: 00:17:30

to that informations already out there. There's no point shutting

Janice Gordon: 00:17:34

the gate because it's already bolted. This is the world that

Janice Gordon: 00:17:37

we're in. So we are followers, but your job is to follow really

Janice Gordon: 00:17:41

close. As soon as they make a step, you make an a step,

Janice Gordon: 00:17:44

eventually, you're going to learn the dance, you're going to

Janice Gordon: 00:17:48

learn the buyers and the customers dance, because you've

Janice Gordon: 00:17:51

been following so close. They're the leaders, they're leading in

Janice Gordon: 00:17:55

the dance. And once you've got there, you're going to be able

Janice Gordon: 00:17:59

to anticipate the next step. And then once you've got there,

Janice Gordon: 00:18:03

you're going to be able to anticipate the next three steps

Janice Gordon: 00:18:06

and guide them through the next three steps. And then once

Janice Gordon: 00:18:10

you've got there, you're developing a relationship into a

Janice Gordon: 00:18:14

partnership, so that you're both entwined. But the fact is, you

Janice Gordon: 00:18:18

have to learn their language. It's like going to another

Janice Gordon: 00:18:21

country, as we have English people often do, and expect

Janice Gordon: 00:18:25

everyone to speak English, that doesn't go, you're in someone

Janice Gordon: 00:18:29

else's country. So you need to learn their language, if you

Janice Gordon: 00:18:33

want to sell to them. And you need to start speaking their

Janice Gordon: 00:18:35

language. And eventually, you'll know the language. So well,

Janice Gordon: 00:18:39

you'll be talking humor, you'll be you'll know the nuances,

Janice Gordon: 00:18:43

you'll be leading in the joke, and they'll all get it. But it

Janice Gordon: 00:18:47

takes time for that to happen. And what you've got to do as a

Janice Gordon: 00:18:50

seller is invest in that time.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:18:54

Wow, that is so powerful. Because one thing that

Wesleyne Greer: 00:18:58

you said that's so interesting is when you go to another

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:01

country, don't expect someone to speak your language, right? Like

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:04

when I go to London, I don't expect for you guys to drive on

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:07

the same side of the road that I do, I have to know that, hey,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:10

I'm in your world, I can't just barrel down the road and drive

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:14

on the wrong side of the road. Right. And so really removing

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:17

yourself. And one of the things that I really think is so

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:20

important is if you're thinking about the next step, your next

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:23

question what you should do next, you're not immersed in

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:26

their world, right? If you're have any apprehensions about

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:30

you, the seller or the company or the product, you're doing it

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:33

wrong. Yeah, absolutely.

Janice Gordon: 00:19:35

Yeah, absolutely.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:36

So you've written a couple books. Tell us

Wesleyne Greer: 00:19:39

about the business evolution. What is that all about?

Janice Gordon: 00:19:43

So the business evolution published in 2014, and

Janice Gordon: 00:19:47

it was came out of the experience I was actually I was

Janice Gordon: 00:19:49

I went into entrepreneurship and had a restaurant on bar. I

Janice Gordon: 00:19:54

employ 20 staff. What I learned was there was many others that

Janice Gordon: 00:19:59

went out of business. This was just after the economic crash.

Janice Gordon: 00:20:03

And we were still growing. And the reason for that was applying

Janice Gordon: 00:20:07

some of these strategies. When I came out of the business, I

Janice Gordon: 00:20:10

realized what it was that created that kind of essential

Janice Gordon: 00:20:13

value. We were using social media before a lot of these

Janice Gordon: 00:20:17

companies, businesses had been in business 10 years, they were

Janice Gordon: 00:20:21

doing things that the way that they used to do, they've always

Janice Gordon: 00:20:24

done them. We were new incumbents. So we had adopted

Janice Gordon: 00:20:27

the new ways of engaging our customers. Plus, I had come out

Janice Gordon: 00:20:31

of customer experience. So I realized that customers were

Janice Gordon: 00:20:34

primary, I stayed close. Remember, I was talking about

Janice Gordon: 00:20:37

staying really close to the customers. So I created great

Janice Gordon: 00:20:41

relationships with a unique group of customers that had

Janice Gordon: 00:20:45

other groups that they were the key influences in. So all I had

Janice Gordon: 00:20:49

to do was tell my key group of people what was going on, and

Janice Gordon: 00:20:52

they would invite other people from their groups, I understood,

Janice Gordon: 00:20:56

that's the way it worked. And it was very personable, I knew them

Janice Gordon: 00:21:00

by you know, first name, but I stayed in regular contact with

Janice Gordon: 00:21:03

them. So all of these things that I learned so and I came up

Janice Gordon: 00:21:06

with the four essential piece, which was personality, you've

Janice Gordon: 00:21:10

got to put your personality into your business, even if you're an

Janice Gordon: 00:21:14

employee, you've got to leave with your own unique personality

Janice Gordon: 00:21:18

purpose, you've got to understand why you're doing it.

Janice Gordon: 00:21:21

And I also talk about what you can do that no one else can do

Janice Gordon: 00:21:25

in the way you do it really important. And then Pleasure is

Janice Gordon: 00:21:30

all about the customer experience. What's your

Janice Gordon: 00:21:34

pleasure, sir? How can I make life better for you? So it's all

Janice Gordon: 00:21:39

about the focused on your customers. Now, if you're an

Janice Gordon: 00:21:42

employee, it's the focus on your employees that create the

Janice Gordon: 00:21:45

customer experience for your customers. So it's about giving

Janice Gordon: 00:21:49

pleasure, how do I do that, and then processes the fourth

Janice Gordon: 00:21:53

essential P I discovered in business because I created a

Janice Gordon: 00:21:56

business association and supported lots of other

Janice Gordon: 00:21:59

businesses to help them to grow through the difficulties having

Janice Gordon: 00:22:03

the MBA background. So process is that we often create

Janice Gordon: 00:22:07

processes based on where we've been before. So Will people or

Janice Gordon: 00:22:11

will have worked for large companies, they understand the

Janice Gordon: 00:22:14

process, they adopt that process for a small business, it doesn't

Janice Gordon: 00:22:17

work, but also understanding processes that we design, or

Janice Gordon: 00:22:21

what we understand. And when a customer comes to your website

Janice Gordon: 00:22:25

or in through your doors, it makes sense to you from your

Janice Gordon: 00:22:29

position. From your perspective, it's completely nonsense to the

Janice Gordon: 00:22:33

customer. From their perspective, they don't know

Janice Gordon: 00:22:36

where to go, you haven't given them clear directions. So your

Janice Gordon: 00:22:38

processes are blocking your customers from doing business

Janice Gordon: 00:22:42

with you. So it's really about understanding how you can create

Janice Gordon: 00:22:45

processes to give customer excellence, to give great

Janice Gordon: 00:22:49

experiences, to make it really easy and frictionless and easy

Janice Gordon: 00:22:53

for your customers.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:22:54

Wow. And that was almost a whole 10 years ago.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:22:59

And it sounds like a lot of the principles that you use as a

Wesleyne Greer: 00:23:03

business owner of you know, this bar and restaurant, you're still

Wesleyne Greer: 00:23:06

able to apply to your clients today. And so when you think

Wesleyne Greer: 00:23:10

about your very vast and diverse career, the time you were in the

Wesleyne Greer: 00:23:15

textiles, industry, financial services, owning your own

Wesleyne Greer: 00:23:17

business, and now as a speaker and a consultant, give me an

Wesleyne Greer: 00:23:21

experience that you feel changed the trajectory of your career,

Janice Gordon: 00:23:25

one experience.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:23:28

I know it's hard.

Janice Gordon: 00:23:31

What changed my trajectory? Was the working for

Janice Gordon: 00:23:35

the customer experience because it was this the missing leg.

Janice Gordon: 00:23:38

That's the thing that really changed it. But every time I

Janice Gordon: 00:23:41

kind of revisit this every year, you know, you do your business

Janice Gordon: 00:23:44

plan, you think, Am I doing the right thing? Am I in the right?

Janice Gordon: 00:23:46

It just almost I'm ahead of my time, as you say with the book

Janice Gordon: 00:23:50

that's still relevant now. But also the fact that if you want

Janice Gordon: 00:23:55

to reimagine your sales revenue, you have to focus on customer

Janice Gordon: 00:24:00

experience. So I've been with this for last 17 years talking

Janice Gordon: 00:24:04

about the relationship between customer experience and sales

Janice Gordon: 00:24:08

and talking about, you know, customer centricity. You've got

Janice Gordon: 00:24:11

to put your customers first you've got to understand their

Janice Gordon: 00:24:14

language, all of these things is what people are beginning to

Janice Gordon: 00:24:17

work with. There's lots more stats out there. That's proven

Janice Gordon: 00:24:20

what I I've been talking about for a long time. So I think it's

Janice Gordon: 00:24:23

really those things really.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:24:24

Wow, so you're a complete early adopter, because

Wesleyne Greer: 00:24:27

17 years ago, you were thinking about this customer experience

Wesleyne Greer: 00:24:31

that everybody's jumping on the bandwagon with today, right?

Wesleyne Greer: 00:24:34

They're all like yes, yes, yes, customer focus, do this do that.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:24:37

But you were a very early adopter of this. You've also

Wesleyne Greer: 00:24:41

recently been featured or written co authored another book

Wesleyne Greer: 00:24:44

tell us about that

Janice Gordon: 00:24:45

heals two deals, how women are dominating b2b

Janice Gordon: 00:24:49

sales. And this was from Heidi Solomon auric. Has girls who

Janice Gordon: 00:24:55

sell and girls who sell is to encourage school you EVA'S into

Janice Gordon: 00:25:00

sales, and really help them to think about sales as a serious

Janice Gordon: 00:25:05

career option. And so she's thinking, how can I get the word

Janice Gordon: 00:25:08

out and decided that which she would pull together women sales

Janice Gordon: 00:25:13

professionals that have different stories to tell, it's

Janice Gordon: 00:25:16

an excellent book, and really inspiring it is for women that

Janice Gordon: 00:25:21

are thinking about going into sales. But I also think it's for

Janice Gordon: 00:25:24

women that already in sales, it's very inspiring stories, and

Janice Gordon: 00:25:28

helps you to see that you're not alone. Whatever experience you

Janice Gordon: 00:25:33

have had, it is in the books, someone's had it before there is

Janice Gordon: 00:25:36

a community of women. The thing is, I find out that scale

Janice Gordon: 00:25:39

yourselves podcast, I interview 50% Women 20% ethnic minorities,

Janice Gordon: 00:25:44

because it's important that their voices heard, I find it

Janice Gordon: 00:25:47

difficult to find the equal amount of men and women and I

Janice Gordon: 00:25:53

know you're shaking your head here, women are not as visible.

Janice Gordon: 00:25:56

Well, one reason is there aren't as many women in sales, because

Janice Gordon: 00:25:59

we've been actively discouraged. And there's lots of barriers to

Janice Gordon: 00:26:03

women getting into sales. So it's great what Heidi is doing a

Janice Gordon: 00:26:06

many other I'm part of women's sales pro, and they you know,

Janice Gordon: 00:26:11

Lori Richardson is doing incredible work, you'll Conrad

Janice Gordon: 00:26:15

kind of started all of this with the campaign of getting more

Janice Gordon: 00:26:18

women on sales stages. So there's a lot of forerunners to

Janice Gordon: 00:26:23

all of this. But it's we've really got to keep the pressure

Janice Gordon: 00:26:26

up the stats of 17% women sales leaders is absolutely poor and

Janice Gordon: 00:26:31

hasn't changed for the last 10 years, or stats or 30% Women in

Janice Gordon: 00:26:35

sales at that hasn't changed. The fact that you know, 50% of

Janice Gordon: 00:26:41

salespeople do not hit target means that there's something

Janice Gordon: 00:26:44

wrong in the system in the way that we're applying the system.

Janice Gordon: 00:26:47

It's broken, it doesn't work. And I could have a whole podcast

Janice Gordon: 00:26:51

on that one as well. But women in sales are the highest

Janice Gordon: 00:26:56

achievers and performers. So you know, you've got on one side

Janice Gordon: 00:27:00

where women are great sellers. And on the other side where

Janice Gordon: 00:27:02

there's all these barriers. So there's still a lot of work to

Janice Gordon: 00:27:05

be done.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:05

Wow, I can hear your passion about women in

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:09

sales, ethnic minorities in sales. And it's so true. There's

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:13

a community that I'm a part of, and they have forums throughout

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:17

the year. And so in January, the kickoff that they had, I was

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:20

like, you don't have any ethnic minority speaking. And they're

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:23

like, oh, my gosh, was lean, we've been trying, but we can't

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:26

find any, I'm like you're not trying hard enough. So I

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:28

literally combed through my LinkedIn, and it was so hard for

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:33

me to find CROs VPs of sales that were ethnic minorities,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:37

right, or even women. And so it is a very big challenge that

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:42

we're working through. And I always say that the problem is

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:45

we don't have enough entry level women in sales. And then when we

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:48

get them in sales, we're not supporting them enough so that

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:51

they want to stay and make this a career and move up their

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:53

ladder. So there's so many multifaceted challenges that we

Wesleyne Greer: 00:27:57

have there.

Janice Gordon: 00:27:58

Absolutely, absolutely. We often have

Janice Gordon: 00:28:00

companies that will recruit more women, but nothing changes in

Janice Gordon: 00:28:03

the culture. The Yes. How's that

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:06

gonna work? Yes. When they just they just check

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:09

the box on the diversity, right? They say okay, yeah, we've hired

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:13

more women with hire more ethnic minorities, and Okay, so we've

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:16

done what we needed to do, but then they leave in nine months.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:19

No, you haven't done what you need to do you have a revolving

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:21

door? Yeah, absolutely. So when you think about your very

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:25

successful and amazing career, I'm gonna pin you down. For one

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:29

thing again, what is one thing you're most proud of

Wesleyne Greer: 00:28:32

accomplishing personally or professionally?

Janice Gordon: 00:28:34

Gosh. I'm not normally what so personally and

Janice Gordon: 00:28:42

professionally, I think I can probably have to come on.

Janice Gordon: 00:28:46

Personally, I'm proud that I have lived in different parts of

Janice Gordon: 00:28:50

the world and traveled to different parts of the world,

Janice Gordon: 00:28:53

from a young age. That's created a very different mindsets that

Janice Gordon: 00:28:58

I'm comfortable of being the only in a room, I see that as an

Janice Gordon: 00:29:02

opportunity. I'm working the room when I go in the room, but

Janice Gordon: 00:29:06

it's taken a lot to get to that stage. But I got to that stage

Janice Gordon: 00:29:09

when I was I was young, because we were the only black family in

Janice Gordon: 00:29:13

this village. It was hostile, I can tell you in England, the

Janice Gordon: 00:29:18

only black family in this village for 15 years, you know,

Janice Gordon: 00:29:21

going through the school system, they didn't pay us any favors.

Janice Gordon: 00:29:25

So you know I think when you've had a trial by fire to come out

Janice Gordon: 00:29:29

of that then anything else is really easy. This is no big

Janice Gordon: 00:29:32

deal. But having travelled around the world I mean, you

Janice Gordon: 00:29:35

could have a mindset of these difficulties problems everyone's

Janice Gordon: 00:29:39

against you but actually having travelled around the world I

Janice Gordon: 00:29:42

think that my mindset is the absolute opposite in that

Janice Gordon: 00:29:45

everyone is genuinely good, not evil and unless proven

Janice Gordon: 00:29:51

otherwise. Really. I'm going to treat everyone with respect and

Janice Gordon: 00:29:55

and I love people I love traveling. I love exploring new

Janice Gordon: 00:29:59

things. So I think per Ultimately, I'm grateful for all

Janice Gordon: 00:30:02

of that traveling that I have done in my life that's helped to

Janice Gordon: 00:30:05

keep my mind open. And I think professionally, I nowhere near

Janice Gordon: 00:30:10

where I want to be, I'm still striving for a lot more. I mean,

Janice Gordon: 00:30:13

I accept, there are more challenges and barriers for me

Janice Gordon: 00:30:17

than, you know, others, for obvious reasons, but I'm still

Janice Gordon: 00:30:21

campaigning to for parity and openness of other people, I

Janice Gordon: 00:30:26

think you've got to give what you expect to receive from

Janice Gordon: 00:30:29

people. And I love what I'm doing, I love when I go in, and

Janice Gordon: 00:30:34

I'm the only in a room and I'm sitting around I'm training and

Janice Gordon: 00:30:37

talking to, you know, which is where if we're talking about

Janice Gordon: 00:30:41

sales are going to be mainly white men. And you know, one or

Janice Gordon: 00:30:44

two might be hostile to me also, but by the end of the session,

Janice Gordon: 00:30:48

you know, we're best friends, you know, and because if I can

Janice Gordon: 00:30:52

transfer some knowledge, some experience, and often it's down

Janice Gordon: 00:30:57

to certain words without, and that enables another salesperson

Janice Gordon: 00:31:04

to do really well enables another person to get on board

Janice Gordon: 00:31:07

with the language of their customers to really succeed in

Janice Gordon: 00:31:11

their work means they succeed in their life for their families,

Janice Gordon: 00:31:15

if I can help somebody do that, if I can help a business grow by

Janice Gordon: 00:31:20

an additional 50%, by giving them knowledge of how to become

Janice Gordon: 00:31:25

customer centric, or how to get your customers have a seat at

Janice Gordon: 00:31:30

your table, how to use their information to create and

Janice Gordon: 00:31:34

innovate products and services that the customers are going to

Janice Gordon: 00:31:38

buy, not only now but into the future, how I can future proof

Janice Gordon: 00:31:42

organizing. If I can do that, then oh my gosh, my you know,

Janice Gordon: 00:31:46

I'm happy, you know, and so the end of the day, because that's

Janice Gordon: 00:31:50

real legacy that's really making a difference not only to

Janice Gordon: 00:31:53

individuals, but businesses, but to their customers as well,

Janice Gordon: 00:31:56

which is I love.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:31:58

Wow, that is awesome. And I love how your

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:02

personal experiences have really translated the way that you work

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:06

the way that you see the world and even has translated into you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:09

professionally, right? Like, you're like, hey, I kind of had

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:11

to develop a thick skin when I was younger. And because of

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:14

that, that's what allows me to go be the only to show up in

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:18

these rooms and really, really help those people who are like,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:22

Who are you and they're your raving fans at the end. I love

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:26

that when you walk in the room. And they're like, Who is this

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:29

another sales trainer? I don't want to hear the same stuff,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:31

blah, blah, blah. And then at the end, it's like, man, you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:35

really transformed the way that I'm thinking you've really

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:38

challenged me.

Janice Gordon: 00:32:39

Yeah. And you know, I don't classify myself as

Janice Gordon: 00:32:42

a sales training because I do talk about sales training

Janice Gordon: 00:32:44

doesn't want Oh, yeah.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:46

That's a whole nother thing. So I say it all

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:49

the time. Sales Training doesn't work.

Janice Gordon: 00:32:51

It doesn't work. Absolutely. But you know, like

Janice Gordon: 00:32:54

really getting sellers to think more like their buyers.

Janice Gordon: 00:32:57

Absolutely. Yes.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:32:58

Awesome. Well, Janet, this has been an amazing,

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:01

amazing conversation. What is the one best way people can get

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:05

in touch with you?

Janice Gordon: 00:33:06

LinkedIn, Janice B. Gordon, don't forget my B.

Janice Gordon: 00:33:09

Janice B. Gordon. If you put that in Google LinkedIn, your

Janice Gordon: 00:33:12

arm on page 123 You're gonna find me

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:15

awesome. Janice B. Gordon, she shows up and has

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:18

valuable content that you should definitely consume on LinkedIn.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:22

So thank you again, Janice. This has been an amazing

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:26

conversation. I feel like I am all deep into this world of

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:30

customer experience and being very solution focused. Thank you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:34

so much for your time, your talent and your expertise today.

Janice Gordon: 00:33:38

It's been a pleasure. Wesleyne. Thank you so

Janice Gordon: 00:33:40

much for inviting me on your wonderful podcast and keep doing

Janice Gordon: 00:33:44

the great work.

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:45

Thank you so much. And that was another

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:48

episode of the transform your sales podcast and remember and

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:53

all that you do, think about how science and sales work together

Wesleyne Greer: 00:33:58

to really transform your sales. Until next time. Thank you for

Wesleyne Greer: 00:34:02

joining us today on the snack sized sales podcast. If you

Wesleyne Greer: 00:34:07

enjoyed this episode, subscribe and leave us a review. Learn how

Wesleyne Greer: 00:34:11

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