Prioritizing Customer Care for Success With Jospeh Michelli

Wesleyne (: 00:00

Hello and welcome to another episode of the Transforms Sales Podcast. I am so delighted to have Joseph Michelli with me. How are you Joseph?

Joseph Michelli (: 00:09

I'm great, thanks for having me.

Wesleyne (: 00:11

I am so excited to tell you about Joseph. He is an internationally sought after speaker, author, and organizational consultant who transfers his knowledge of exceptional business practices in ways that develop joyful and productive workplaces with a focus on customer experience. His insights encourage leaders and frontline workers to grow and invest passionately in all aspects of their life. Dr. Michele is a Wall Street Journal USA Today Publishers Weekly.

Nielsen Books Scan and New York Times number one best author. He's a member of Authors Guild and editorial board member of the Barrell Institute Patient Experience Journal and is on the Founders Council of Customer Experience One. So tell us Joseph, how did you start your career and how did you become this amazing published author that's showing up all over the world?

Joseph Michelli (: 01:03

Well, you know, I don't think anybody actually starts off wanting to be a customer experience expert. So somehow it happened to line the way, but I went to graduate school and while in graduate school, a little fish market up in Seattle said, Hey, we're floundering quite literally and we need some help. And so I was able to work with a little fish market called the place fish market where they throw fish. And we really created an experience that helped them go from bankruptcy to really becoming world famous just on word of mouth. And that got me into.

working in healthcare and working on organizational development consulting for that. And after a while, I just said, I got to take a chance on myself and I'm going to head for a head for the private practice of consulting.

Wesleyne (: 01:44

So when you were in college and you were getting your very first degree, what did Joseph want to be when he grew up?

Joseph Michelli (: 01:53

I thought I was going to be a forensic psychologist, which I actually did for a little bit in practice. But, you know, I thought that I could help people both from the legal perspective, but also from the mental health perspective. So that was my vision. And after a while, I realized that's all about conflict all day long and getting in the middle of people's messes. So it was much better to focus on something that could really affect change. And I think organizational change is complicated in its own right. But most people are at least trying to work together for a common good.

Wesleyne (: 02:23

And so you took some of the, what you learned being a forensic psychologist and you said, okay, I don't quite like this. So what were some of those keys, those indicators that really told you that this isn't the right fit for me, but I want to do something in this arena?

Joseph Michelli (: 02:42

Well, fortunately, I, you know, my training was broad enough that I studied system psychology as well as clinical psychology. So I was looking at systems, oftentimes marital systems and custody evaluations and not guilty by reason of insanity and incompetent to stand trial kinds of systems, legal systems. And at some point I just determined that that was a hard way to go. I think I was actually going into a restaurant once and I sat down to have a meal and people moved because I'd done a custody of Al.

and they apparently didn't get the kids. So at some point in life you realize I don't really want to spend my life there. There's other people who are better suited for that. I really want to help organizations move forward and create positive experiences for human beings.

Wesleyne (: 03:24

So tell us a little bit more about that, because we primarily talk to sales leaders and we're talking to business owners. We don't get too many really smart PhDs on here that have this very unique view of the world that are talking about organizational change and development. So at its grassroots baseline, what does that mean and what does it mean for organizations?

Joseph Michelli (: 03:47

Well, you know, sales is the ability to create value for somebody else and help them see that so that they choose to engage that value. Oftentimes, once you've created that value, you have to deliver it against whatever the sales promise was. And so the customer experience is really just delivering on the promises made in the sales cycle. There are also experiences people are having throughout the sales journey. And we have had terrible sales experiences, all of us. And we've also had people who just really cared about us, who you could tell.

wanted us to succeed and in the process they believe so much in their product and their solution that they made that available to us in ways that really felt comfortable to us, very focused on what we wanted, needed and desired, the way they approached us. And so for me, it's just an understanding of how do we meet needs and exceed expectations throughout the entire journey, whether that's consideration or sales or the post sales execution of service on sales.

Wesleyne (: 04:44

And when we go to that experience, you're talking about Pike's Place Fish Market, and you're like, they were literally floundering. I love that analogy. But as you think about doing something at the very early start of your career, what were some of those lessons that you learned?

Joseph Michelli (: 04:52

Yep.

Joseph Michelli (: 05:05

Well, the owner of the pipeline fish market, Johnny Yoko Yama, who I worked with really was very authoritative. He was a very hard boss to work for. He was actually interned in a Japanese American internment camp when he was a kid. And I think he lost all personal power as a child. And so when he finally got in control of a business, he took way too much control and could break people down and have burly fishmongers leave crying. I think early on, it became very clear that if we didn't have the hearts and souls of the people that were part of our team,

They were not going to be able to sell into the community. They weren't going to be able to promote the products and this place called the Pike Place Fish Market. So I think once we really started to create this world famous experience where we treated each other like we were world famous, then we could treat guests who came into the space as world famous. So if you were to walk up to the Pike Place Fish Market today, they would greet you as if you are a celebrity. And once you come into a physical space around their tiny little 1 ,400 square foot fish stand,

that you would know that you are being treated like a celebrity and they're focusing on you. They're taking interest in you and much more about being interested than being interesting. And the brand became very interesting to consumers by taking that world -class interest in others and coaching each other to do that and making sure that we are being it in every single thing we do.

Wesleyne (: 06:26

Well, there are a couple of things that I want to touch on that you mentioned. So the first one was a leader who appeared to be a certain way, wasn't very compassionate or empathetic or any of those things. And one thing that you said, you were like, this is how this person grew up and this is how they displayed as a leader in the workplace. So talk to us through how our.

early experiences in life, our experiences, whether it's in childhood or in an early experience that we had, how they show up in us as leaders.

Joseph Michelli (: 07:00

Well, I think we are just a full byproduct of all of the experiences we've had. And oftentimes we can't fully appreciate the experiences that someone else had. So as an effective leader, I think we have to be pretty insightful to our own stuff and constantly working on growing. Johnny Yokoyama said, you know, fish stinks from the head. And he was the head of the organization. He needed to really get in control of a lot of his stuff in order to create an empowering workplace. And he did.

and he was probably in his late forties, maybe early fifties at the time. So it's not like too late ever. I'm still working on my stuff in my sixties. and so I think that, that he got in an awareness of what were some of his boundaries and issues. And then he also started to really try to listen more so that he could understand where other people came from and started to honor their ideas instead of his way. and that's really how they've gone.

where they've gone. I mean, one of the greatest lines Johnny always says is, let's take it back to the team. And I think that notion is the team's thinking when respecting each other is much greater than he could ever forge with his limited set of life experiences.

Wesleyne (: 08:11

That's so good. So literally he built that self -awareness. He realized that, okay, there's something that I want to change, but I am unable to do it. So let me elicit some outside help. As a leader, how do we get to that point of self -awareness?

Joseph Michelli (: 08:28

Well, unfortunately he did it in the desperation phase, right? So he was about to lose his business, because he really wasn't managing his team effectively and leveraging it. Hopefully we don't get to that point. I'm, you know, Tony Robbins says we either, we either change from inspiration or desperation. And so hopefully listening to podcasts like yours create that inspiring reason to do it. Like the, we will be more successful in sales if we learn how to listen to other people.

will be more successful in sales if we understand the stuff in us that gets in the way of us asking for the clothes or, you know, stopping the sale because we came from poverty and we're, we're actually purchasing out of our own wallet, which, you know, is certainly limited compared to maybe the consumer that we're selling to. So I think it is that willingness to either be inspired to grow or hitting a wall and having no other options.

Wesleyne (: 09:22

It's out of, I like that it's out of either desperation or the desire to move from where you are to really leverage it to the next step, getting out of your own way.

Joseph Michelli (: 09:33

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Wesleyne (: 09:36

So that experience that you had early in your career, it really drove your passion for this customer experience. So as you move from Pike's Place, walk us through some of the other steps that you took on your journey to become who you are today.

Joseph Michelli (: 09:51

So I wrote a book about that fish market. and Johnny was kind enough to work with me and we wrote it together about his journey to success in that fish market. that fish market is a block and a half away from the first Starbucks store. And so Howard Schultz, who really was proud of that Pike Place fish, the Pike Place market store, the first Starbucks store and would sometimes come in was very much aware of the fish market. And in fact, they throw cups at the first Starbucks store, kind of emulating some of the things that happened at the fish market.

So that enabled me to access and start working with Howard Schultz and the Starbucks leadership team on the customer experience in Starbucks, which then I wrote a book about, which then gave me access to other businesses who reached out to me like the Ritz Carlton. And once you open the Ritz Carlton, then you get the Airbnb way and you get into automotive and we've done Mercedes and another book about Starbucks and Zappos. And just, it just goes on and on. I think we're 12 books in now about brands and it's all just.

working with them, helping them with their customer experience and then getting to tell their story, which then creates a virtuous sale cycle really where I'm not selling, I'm just telling other people's story and people then have an interest.

Wesleyne (: 11:03

And so when you are working with these large organizations, these large brands, and you're telling their story, what are some of the things in their story that are really profound to a reader? Like, why are people continuing to say, hey, we want you outside of everyone else?

Joseph Michelli (: 11:20

Yeah, I think most of the great brands have great leaders who care about people and understand that they are in the people business first. Howard Schultz said that I'm not in the coffee business. I'm in the people business serving coffee. I think that that's a fundamental trait of a lot of the great brands that that we're attracted to. I think beyond that, they understand that we are emotional beings and that we are definitely selling to the practical benefits and attributes of a product. But we're also selling the emotional connection to a consumer.

And so someone like, you know, Starbucks is thinking about how do we create that nurturing third place between work and home where we can create some uplifting moments in the life of the consumer. Someone, you know, at Ritz Carlton is thinking about how do we nurture the guest at a high level so we're creating the home of a loving parent. And I think they define for their teams, what do we want every single person to feel every single time they interact with us? And that's our peers, that's our vendors, and that's our customers.

Wesleyne (: 12:19

And so when a, so let's kind of roll this down to smaller businesses or businesses that don't have exclusive customer experience teams. What are some of the things that they need to, the lessons that they can take from these large brands that they can actionably create within their organizations?

Joseph Michelli (: 12:36

Well, yeah. So today you just hired on to my dry cleaner and you used to be selling flowers across the street. And so one of the most important things is to celebrate the fact that you've joined our team to make a huge difference on behalf of the lives of the people who walk into these doors. And then how are we different than, you know, the flower shop? Well, we want every single person that walks in this door to walk out feeling X, Y, or Z, right? Like that's who we are. And you are empowered to do what it takes up to some reasonable limit.

to try to make sure that that happens for every single guest. It should be your opportunity and challenge to affect human lives. And you're not just transacting dollars for dry cleaning. You are literally in the lifting up this person in some kind of emotional way. And when they walk out of that door, if they felt something, they're going to tell other people who are looking for a good dry cleaner that, you know, not only do they get the quality that they would have in the product, but there's, they care about them. They are cared for in the quality.

but they're cared about in the fact that I'm really excited to see you walk in the door and I know who you are and I pay attention to your wants, needs and desires and celebrate and ask you about that vacation you talked to me about the last time you were in.

Wesleyne (: 13:46

Hmm, that's good. That's good. So what I'm hearing is the first part is, and I heard this earlier, it's first you have to make sure that your insides match your outsides. So you want to make sure that the experience inside of your company, that everybody who works for you is having that same type of experience. And then the second part is emotions.

A lot of times I don't think that we talk about the emotional connection or how people feel when they experience us or walk in. And I think that that is really lost on businesses today because they're so focused on driving the dollars.

Joseph Michelli (: 14:22

Absolutely. And you know, look, you need to know your product inside and out. You need to know the benefits and attributes. You need to be knowledgeable. There is no replacement for being knowledgeable. On top of that knowledgeable, though, you also need to be knowledgeable on the soft skills that drive human behavior. And a lot of what causes us to purchase things, we justify it based on the benefits and attributes. We've justified in the frontal cortex of our brain that logically, that's why I chose it.

But in reality it's a lot of how did I feel when I was interacting with you in the context of our sales relationship or why do I come back to you? Because I, there's a certain felt sense about you. I feel a thing about you and it's trust or it's, it makes me happy to see you or I feel important when I interact with you, whatever that is, if we could own it at a brand level and try to build it into a few moments during the journey, arrival moments matter a lot.

transition moments after you've sold me, or do you still love me? Like you really were super nice to me up to the point of the sale. Now are you gonna be nice to me now that you got my money? When I'm leaving your building, are you as excited to tell me how much you wanna serve me again as you were when I first walked in, in the hope that I would spend money in your business? Those are the kinds of things that I think great small business owners are working on with their teams and helping them understand it's the thing.

but it's also how we envelop that thing in an emotional context.

Wesleyne (: 15:46

Mmm.

and enveloping it in an emotional context because it's not just the product. It's not just the dollars. It's not just the output. It's what is the actual way how are people actually experiencing, right? Because I think that there's a saying it's not what you say is how you make people feel or something along that context, right? And it's true because if you call a business and the person who answers the phone has an attitude, you're like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna go to the next person in my life.

Joseph Michelli (: 16:08

Yeah.

Wesleyne (: 16:17

But if you call and that person is so great and so insightful and they're 20 or 30 % higher than the other place, you'll be like, but I know they're going to treat me right. Like I trust them more. Right. And I think that it's important for businesses to understand what that specific feeling that they need to enlist in their customers. Because for different industries, I find it that it's different.

Joseph Michelli (: 16:41

Absolutely. And so, you know, I worked with Zappos, which is an online shoe retailer, right? And, and they sell other products, but predominantly no further shoes. And so we really focused on something we called a personal emotional connection. So from the, we called it a pack, right? A personal emotional connection at the beginning of every interaction, we wanted to make that personal connection. It doesn't have to be long and prolonged, but we just didn't want to just rush into the transaction. And once we did that, we really wanted to make sure that above all else, you knew.

that we had your back. So let's pretend you wanted some Converse All -Stars for your reunion and we didn't have them in your color and your size in time for the reunion. So the first thing we're going to do is we're going to go look into the inventory of a competitor as best we can peer into that. And if we think they have them, we're going to send you a link directly on how you can buy them from the competitor. Now we'd also send a bounce back coupon because we want to try to get your business back after we sent you away. And interestingly enough, the redemption rates were something on the order of 70 % on the bounce back.

And when people would call us and they would redeem the coupon, the inquiry would pretty much go like this, well, why did you come back to us? We kind of failed you the last time, right? And their answer was you didn't fail us, you took care of us. And because you took care of us, we came back to you. They just fulfilled the order, but you take care of us. And I think brands that understand you might lose some short -term sales for a long -term relationship and the long -term lifetime value of a customer.

Those are the brands that are winning in the marketplace today in the very mercenary transactional brands. People are taking them or leave them and there's a lot of competitors out there.

Wesleyne (: 18:14

Yeah, absolutely. The context that I typically put that in when I'm working with teams is it's your job to understand what the customer's biggest issue is, what their biggest problem is. And that big problem may not be something that you can solve, but it is your responsibility to say, hey, it seems like this is your challenge. And I know great people in this area. Let me send you over there, work with them, and at the right time, come back. And like you said, that come back rate of those people who

take your referral. They're like, if you are this great, you're sending me to another great person. So that's automatic business for your referral partner. And like you said, it builds relationships that's not just driven by the revenue that you're getting in the company, right? You're building these legs and arms outside of your organization for, you know, friendly competition or referral partners or things like that. And you're satisfying what that customer needs at that moment.

Joseph Michelli (: 19:09

Amen. And the reciprocity principle of this thing is there too. Every time you send someone out to a person in your network, there is a little bit of them that's saying, boy, I kind of owe them. I really should be looking for somebody who I can send back their way. And not everybody works from that place. It would be a wonderful world if everybody was reciprocating. But enough people do that if you just trust the universe on that, the few that don't will drift away anyway. So I'm a big fan of

Wesleyne (: 19:31

Yeah.

Joseph Michelli (: 19:38

who do I know? It's that old saying, it's not what you know, it's who you know, and I would even go one step further, it's what you know about who you know. So the more I know about the skill sets of other people, the more I can channel the person I now am coming to know to the right resource.

Wesleyne (: 19:41

Yeah.

Wesleyne (: 19:57

And I think when you are building an organization and we're thinking about, you know, what do I need to do to really build a world class organization? It is getting out of your own head, getting out of your own space and realizing that you do need to build partnerships and you do need to build relationships with people who, again, you may be out of a certain product and maybe you need to buy something from them or they need to buy something from you or you need to have this strategic partnership so you guys can share business back and forth because you,

No company exists as an island, right? And if we think about these large brands, they have gotten to where they are by not just existing as an island and only thinking about themselves.

Joseph Michelli (: 20:37

Yeah, I think this this notion that we can do it all ourselves is kind of a fallacy. You know, we stand on the shoulders of giants said Isaac Newton. And I think that really is true. We all are reliant on each other in an ecosystem. I you know, if you look at restaurants, the classic example, if you can get enough restaurants in a small area, it actually improves the cause as opposed to a single mom and pop because you've created this traffic pattern of people who are consuming in that restaurant space. And and I think we need to think about that as building a

a vibe, a scene, a community. And, you know, the same is true with successful music genres. You know, if you have a town like Motown that really rocked rock and roll, it's because there was that movement there. There's a density of successful people who work together.

Wesleyne (: 21:24

Yes, yes, I love that, I love that. So tell us what are you doing these days? What keeps you busy?

Joseph Michelli (: 21:31

Well, I just finished a book about an Australian company that is kind of rare for me to not have a brand like Starbucks or Mercedes out there. It's a small telecom out of Australia. And I decided I would do that book because I'd worked with them for a number of years. And when I first got a call from a telecom saying we care about customers, I thought it was a prank call. So once I got past that and realized they're the real deal, it helped me just appreciate to your point, not everybody is a major brand. A lot of us are challenger brands. A lot of us are trying to find our way.

And so I decided to do a book about a company I think that was more connected to that. But other than that, busy writing, busy consulting, and just blessed as all could be to be on shows like yours.

Wesleyne (: 22:11

Awesome, and so as we come to the end here, I'm curious if there's a specific experience in your professional life that has really impacted the way that you show up to the world and lead today.

Joseph Michelli (: 22:24

Yeah, I think it's probably, you know, out of mistakes. I just think when I was a young leader, I really thought that I needed to know it all and have the answers. And I worked my rear end to try to fake my way through that with a lot of imposter syndrome stuff going on. I think at some point in life, you start to say, nobody has all the answers. We all have broken parts. And the goal is to somehow or another be real with people and show that and embrace theirs and find ways through it.

And so I think a lot of it was just that imposter syndrome and I knew everything and knew nothing all at the same time.

Wesleyne (: 23:00

Yeah, yeah, bring you down that veil, kind of like what you're doing today, helping companies break down their corporate veil and tap into the emotional connection with their people.

Joseph Michelli (: 23:12

Thanks for what you do and helping all of us understand how to sell better.

Wesleyne (: 23:16

Thank you so much. And how can people reach out to you if they want to connect with you? It's the one best way.

Joseph Michelli (: 23:21

Just that name on the screen and you can find me you put that in you'll find me everywhere you need to whether it's LinkedIn or tik -tok or Anywhere you would want to go. You'll find my website as well

Wesleyne (: 23:32

Well, thank you so much, Joseph. This has been a fantastic talk. Thanks for sharing your time, your talent, and your expertise with us today. Thank you. And that was another episode of the Transform Sales Podcast. Remember, in all that you do, transform your sales. Until next time.

Joseph Michelli (: 23:39

Thank you.